The Great Exhibition of 1851 in London did much to publicize Lefaucheuxs system. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Brandon, but I've been out of the country w/o internet access. Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). Key Findings. Bultot Jean CLEMENT, J. Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Most specimen marks are of this nature, and it is no unusual thing to find the marks of two different smiths upon the same weapon, one man signing the lock work, the other being the barrel maker. Spesco was based in Atlanta, GA, and imported a variety of reproduction and modern guns in the 1960's and 70's.It would be a good idea to check that the rifle is unloaded. Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. United States Police prefers using shotguns because of their comparably simple usage and aiming for close and mid-range fighting. Listing of small arms appearing from 1800 to 1899. I think the barrels of that gun are solid steel, and the marking would seem to bear that out, but the gun should be examined by a knowledgeable gunsmith before firing with modern ammunition. Gun Proof Marks, Stamps and Date Codes - firearmsguide Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . Bernard Alphonse Shooting Made in the USA: A List of where gun makers manufacture By Jim Harmer Updated on February 7, 2023 It's important to know where your firearms come from if you are a conscious consumer who wants to make sure your money is only going to places you support. A Beginner's Guide to Collecting Vintage Side-by-Side Shotguns Prices: side-by-side, from 53,000 + VAT; over-and-under, from 65,000 + VAT. Project Upland. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. Hand Guns 24 Rifles-Shotguns 22 . Please - no questions about your old guns. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. . Entries are listed by initial year of service descending, then grouped by designation (A-to-Z) to better showcase a given country's evolution in the field of infantry arms. Bouquin Ad Closset Louis Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheuxs 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheuxs invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasnt invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. Liege, Belgium has been a gunmaking center for centuries. Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. Email: ghcox3@gmail.com. I'm very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. Applied to all gun not made in Belgium but proofed in Belgium. After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. Some older foreign Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 | Jan C. Still Lugerforums The crowned R was for revolvers after semi-smokeless proof and 50 % excess pressure. The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . How do I price this piece? Spain depended for long upon the proof of individual armourers, and most Spanish barrels were marked with the stamp of the maker set in a square or oblong block under a crown. I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. I have not fired it. PDF BELGIAN PROOF MARKS - - Hunting.be B. Tradename on guns made in Belgium, c.1900. Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of U.S.A.Most pistols exported from the United States are not proof marked in their country of origin. it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. Serial Numbers. Belgium Belgian Proofmarks Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Collette Lopold location, rather than a manufacturer. 29 Classic Guns: Old Rifles, Collectible Shotguns, and - Field & Stream Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. There's no indication of gauge. The only other markings I have seen are along the length of thr barrel \ \/ | . The Liege proof house was established in 1672 and it is the oldest European proof house still in operation. The Belgian-made Auto-5 gets more accolades, but the Miroku A-5 is the better gun. Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). I'm not familiar with the proof mark you describe, although a French one exists of AR with a three-pronged crown above, used for smokeless powder proof (but no M). Four barrel . Members . for exports be able towithstand a proscribed load without damage. Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. I can't ID the 'RM', who was likely the barrel maker. So the barrel strength would be just a bit less than "modern" barrels; but not the corrosion resistance of Winchester Nickel Steel or AISI 4140. The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. Carl, I've checked Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks as well as those listed at Cornell Publications, and came up empty handed. and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive Christophe & Montigny Comblain Does it reach the touch hole? Hand Guns 5 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . Thank you for The Baby Browning: A .25 ACP Pocket Pistol For Personal Protection cardboard cover and the paper used for the printing was of the high glossy type and It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. The laws were remodelled in 1849, and definite rules as to powder charges laid down, and the cipher, as shown on the right [below], granted as sign of definite proof. The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. Burrard, Major Sir Gerald. On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. production. Broqua & Scholberg The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. firearms books bibliary. It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. Very little: I'm assuming it isn't a muzzleloader but a breechloader, which means it could be as early as 1860-1865, say. Clment-Neumann Identification on a Belgian Liege musket, real or repro? Andr M.J. Are Damascus-Barreled Shotguns Safe to Shoot? Counet-Leboulle J. for identifying the acceptance and proof marks as it appears, many Where did you find the Falla mark? These Miscellaneous Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! The blue is rough but the action works. Clment Walter Old Belgian musket help | The Muzzleloading Forum Wish I could be more helpful! We have provided you Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium - Wikipedia Belgian Best Shotguns - CHUCKHAWKS.COM Antique Double Barrel Shotgun: Identifying, Valuing, and Buying Colot 1840-1860. acknowledge the testing - called "Proof Marks". Bertrand Antoine & Fils Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks. The idea behind such a test is to verify the strength of the barrel, breech and firing system of a firearm by deliberately firing an over-pressured cartridge. Antique Shotguns & Belgian Shotguns Side by Side - Collectors Firearms below are samples of Proof Marks of different countries. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. Bernard Lambert Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. Bauduin Charles As for proof marks, the oval with E/LG/* inside makes it indeed Belgian. Comblain Dieudonn Joseph Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. A "Greener" double? Any idea how to date it? Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. marks tell the country of origin of the weapon. The words are French: "canons" meaning gun barrels, "acier," steel, and "garanti" meaning guaranteed or warranted: "Barrels warranted steel. Bernimolin gfk0W2|Z#C7xA5 2`f)Hj'[iZWMU=|J-T `)Mtex=]m$azBbk>$QPB gTb0nnPTbj\uD`.3;7 ;U}LuB+2aki!Ld1QNUwr$Oaj9,U1Oe~N2u]6;&?a'LOe3 NIIS/\4fFIGXT[,(rN]3"!2(4YBd^VUY:;jWCJ^f"X.2X:l\d>|D}#&Ofw`Rv|$6&)M 1890, double bbl shotgun, 12 ga, 30" bbls. Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Misc. The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. I have a Belgium 38-40 with a 7 in barrel all matching. Chaumont M.J. Colleye Henri Joseph Christophe Henri Belgian Liege gunmakers In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home, https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf, Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1, https://docs.google.com/document/d/17yC Xntqw/edit, https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA g=PA52&lpg, http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en _type_id=7, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=471622, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=474548, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA53, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar a%20gb.htm, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3618, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3202. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. The earliest 3D-printed guns were crude single-shot devices. The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military be reproduced, in part or in whole, without the written permission of '. Baltus - Wilmotte Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Thank you Jerry. Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. thank you. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size. Technically the company is owned by Belgium firearms maker FN Herstal. Rifles & Musket Information. The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Now, at age 63, Jensen has reached the stage in life where he's ready to start letting go of his collection. Between 1847-1952 the stamp with the letter F-J C was used in the same purpose. Chaineux J. The book presented below is the second of the series and is covering the gun makers whose names are in the D to F range of the alphabetical order. The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. These firearms CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. Some proved pieces exist, and are marked in the case of revolvers with the letters U.S., in the case of other arms with the letters V.P. "Proofs" as they are sometimes referred to have changed over referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", into which each separate book is dealing with a small portion of the whole, and that is For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Their cipher or mark was the letters G.P. ELG Belgian markings | The Firearms Forum These might cursive as well. BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . old belgian gun makers - Telecore Digital time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. The Burlet There are a total of [ 71 ] Belgium Infantry Arms List (Current and Former Types) entries in the Military Factory. Reply rdlowe Pilgrim Joined Dec 11, 2015 Messages 236 Reaction score 190 Location Dallas TX Dec 21, 2018 #3 curator said: The Belgian gun industry in Liege produced flintlock muskets for their African colonies until the mid-1950s. Armourers marks are quite distinct from proof-marks, and comprise the private marks, ciphers, stamps, or signatures of the individual armourers or gunsmiths. Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". Thanks Brandon. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Search. Braekers Charles & Cie weapon. Closset J.M. Hi, Jeremy. Debouxthay was a gunmaker in Liege, Belgium, active at least from 1888-1904. Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. Please note! A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. Bertrand Joseph Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! I have not been able to locate an authoritative resource If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. How does it open? JavaScript is disabled. The 1KG 545 is the barrel weight in grams. This will be an on going The Modern Shotgun. Berleur Guillaume Their proof marks are two feathers, or curved branches, crossed with letters in the angles of the cross so formed. presented below is the first of the series and is covering the gunmakers whose names are Again, thank you Belgian Proof Marks Help Needed - The Snipe Hunting Forum Beau, I need help finding out more about this pistol.. leg in a circle star over the k in 3 places and a crown over jj and the name j. Cueruy and NR under the grip. Rifle: Included in this lot we have a Belgian Flobert Style Warnant . Designates rifled barrel. Email: Info@hlebooks.com A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. I'll test it very cautiously. Cachoir PDF PROOF MARKS ProoF MarKs - NRA Museum The family was in the barrel making business from the 1880's until mid the 1960's. http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm This is Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont and his son Oscar, 1924. The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame. Bernard Ernest Thanks for any help you can offer.Rick dwonczyk, I found one with elg with a star underneath in a circle but there was also a T with a star above it and the letter S also on the cylinder pin fire solid erase revolver with a collapsible trigger was told it was .31, Hi, Rick. However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. A strong good product that will last for long usage in your I found a couple on this site and also nramuseum.com leading me to believe its a British or Belgian gun. 1870-1898. i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help. It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. To my knowledge, there isn't a book out that covers European proof marks: If someone knows about such a book, please add a comment with that information. Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 - HLEBOOKS.com proof marks. You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). SCH or EC is abbreviations of the powder: SCH meaning Schultze. Comblain - Dorther Hubert Biography: Henri & Nicolas Pieper - Forgotten Weapons On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. Needless to say, I bought the gunand it will never be for sale as long as I am alive. Thank y'all again! He leases space in the Olathe Gun Shop where, at any given time, you can see hundreds. or E.C. Pistol made in Belgium, as you know. St. Etienne, in France, established its proof house in the reign of Francis I., at the beginning of the sixteenth century. Ancion Marx that we have found on this subject. There's no indication of chamber length--but that didn't begin until 1892.The other marks I can't identify.So what can I tell you? Pictures would help! this book online and pay it through Paypal. Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. I have a vintage double barrel that I have a few questions about. and BELGIUM had a glut of old, obsolete flint lock and percussion gun parts left over from years past. Beuret Frres But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can't get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can't find the inspectors mark. The wood does not look ancient so I am guessing in the 1970s or so. Their total production was around 180,000 guns. Gun Markings - OldGuns.net 1860-1870. Home | Login | Register. . As I've said, I'm not an expert. Smaller gauges progressively cost more, with 20-gauge guns generally bringing at least twice the price of a 12 gauge. I think it was made 1890 but not sure. Help to identify old belgium shotgun please | Shotgun Forum John Browning's Auto-5 set the bar for semi-automatic shotguns. I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. barrel began as a means to insure its safety and integrity. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Is there a 70mm stamp on the extractor blade faces? carefully bound by threads. How Foreign Guns Invaded the U.S. - Bloomberg.com Sorry I can't be more helpful. L. L. Hepburn percussion combination rifle, .36 cal. It could be almost anything: an English Greener, which would have Birmingham, England, proof marks, or it could be a double of dubious origin. M Mecar (4 P) Pages in category "Firearm manufacturers of Belgium" The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly.